04 Oct 2023 16:55:55
So I’m still caught up on the UAE connection on this VAR shambles. I’m not one to believe conspiracy theories and all that chaos. I honestly believe what needs to be done next is a proper investigation into referees from other leagues involved in doing side jobs in the UAE. First would be pay. Are certain refs paid more than others especially if higher paid ones are also working in their FT gigs in a league that has team ownership in their FT league gig. That’s a starting point. If there are referees being paid more than other UAE referees and they are also working in a league that has ownership in UAE (league itself vs team) and same ownership has a team in that referees league it would be at best highly questionable. This entire thing is just looking like a total con job. Was it Ed01 below who had a reply on how if a teams owner were going to cheat they wouldn’t enhance their team they’d make it harder for the competition, something along those lines.

1.) 04 Oct 2023
04 Oct 2023 17:56:51
They need to sack them bergenred. Sporting integrity is massively compromised even if it was because of pure incompetence. The bar is low but it cannot be accepted to lower it to this level. If this is not low enough for meaningful punishment what is? I would be willing to accept a six month suspension and some changes. I wouldn't be happy about it but it would just about be palatable.

If they are back in the week after next or before Christmas then I'm out. Step too far for me to watch a sport with completely corrupt refereeing.

2.) 04 Oct 2023
04 Oct 2023 18:41:48
Davey, I have worked in IT for almost a decade and have managed incidents as an Incident Manager which is what this VAR stuff is. If I did what Darren England did and single handedly refused to break protocol to get the correct the root cause of the incident then, I would either be sacked or I would be on some serious probation.

3.) 04 Oct 2023
04 Oct 2023 18:20:48
Think you make a good point Bergen. Be interesting to see if the ref Who did the Wolves game at the weekend is getting paid in the UAE this week. This all needs clear and transparent.

{Ed002's Note - It is clear and transparent. And in other leagues, Japan, Greece, Saudi and Champions League, Europa League and Europa Cup etc.. It is like the Liverpool supporters don’t t know this.}

4.) 04 Oct 2023
04 Oct 2023 19:48:34
There iss no way premier league st officals should be working in uae r saudi considering them people own 2 major clubs in england. A complete conflict of intere.

5.) 04 Oct 2023
04 Oct 2023 20:10:44
Sorry I disagree with referees not being allowed to do games abroad it's like overtime. Listen many a year ago I was suspended for 6months from refereeing for over ruling my linesman so why do the higher up not get suspended for more than 2 games as i've said before i was a working man IE apostie not in a high profile job that's what is wrong with most of them starting with fergies fav howard webb tell me I'm wrong.

{Ed002's Note - What is wrong with it. Who will referee Champions League, Europa League and Europa Cup games. What is the issue?}

6.) 04 Oct 2023
04 Oct 2023 20:18:41
Ed, Bruce grobellaar took bungs to throw matches, Clubs in Italy have been shown to be involved in high level max fixing. yet you talk as if match fixing is an impossibility, and either block posts like this or get enraged.

{Ed002's Note - There has been no match-fixing in the Premier League - huge amounts of effort have made to ensure that is the case.}

7.) 04 Oct 2023
04 Oct 2023 20:42:08
To be clear, as for reffing in another league. I’m not saying the can’t ref in champions league etc but more specifically as an example UAE and PL. completely different leagues that aren’t in similar competitions .

8.) 04 Oct 2023
04 Oct 2023 20:51:29
Can we try to get away from the idea that “the Liverpool supporters” are a single entity that all think the same thing at the same time?

Like Oli, I work in IT and have done so since 1984. VAR is a piece of technology, in today’s technology jargon it is a ‘service’. Basically speaking there is a Service Provider (the suppliers of the technology) a Service Owner (broadly speaking, the FA) and Services Users (broadly speaking, the match day officials and, by association, the clubs, with quality assurance of the service being provided by PGMOL.

As with a large percentage of IT based services the technology is fit for purpose, that is to say the technology is capable of providing the capability that the Service Owner has asked for. The thing is, again, in my 40 years experience in IT, that the Service Owner hasn’t really been able to define the full extent of what the Service should include, how the process to execute the service should work and what the acceptable success criteria are (and how they are measured) when a service is introduced. This lack of definition, of quality assurance measures and the definition of what success looks like are nearly always evident in the introduction of new services - like VAR for instance.

Within IT there are guiding principles (for want of a better phrase) - incorporated within a thing called the IT Infrastructure Library (ITIL) which talks about Services being ‘fit for use’ - provides the appropriate technical solution requested by the Service Owner and ‘fit for purpose’ which ensures that the Service Users are able to use the service provided to obtain the results they want.

In my opinion, VAR is currently ‘fit four use’ but is not, as yet, ‘fit for purpose’.

I think that its use should be suspended for the rest of the season while the process that determines how the VAR team reaches decisions and communicates with the outside world are reviewed and amende.

It’s not corruption, it’s actually a process problem that is, at heart, easy to rectify - if the FA wants to provide me with a lucrative contract for the next 6 months I’d be happy to provide consultation on how to fix the problem.

There was an old marketing adage, back in the day that said, roughly, that for every bad experience a customer had in a shop it took seven good experiences to take away thoughts of the bad one. At the moment VAR is providing (the perception of) multiple bad experiences every week. If clear and positive steps aren’t taking very soon, the idea of ‘corruption’ isn’t going to go away.

Sorry, techs rant over.

9.) 04 Oct 2023
04 Oct 2023 21:13:50
I guess the UAE question is not about corruption but whether it is sensible for refs to take long flight back 48 hours before a PL kick-off and whether the long flight contributed to their pathetic performance.

10.) 04 Oct 2023
04 Oct 2023 21:23:15
Another part of the process not working @Barak.

Setting aside the reasons for PL officials being sent off around the world, there is obviously a link missing between what the officials were doing and where they were on a Thursday and then on Saturday. I’m sure the formation would have been available but it might not have reached the right people, at the right time to join the dots. Might be corruption at work or might be ineptitude. might even be both, but certainly you can put measures in place to red flag such events.

11.) 04 Oct 2023
04 Oct 2023 21:47:25
Why isn’t VAR controlled by AI?
It would improve and learn every game, its trajectory would be constantly upwards whereas humans make more and more unfathomable mistakes. It would be swift, it would be consistent.

Any suggestion of reducing the ridiculous number of officials would be instantly dismissed by PGMOL despite the obvious benefits to the game.

{Ed002's Note - There has been no thoughts about having VAR controlled by AI but there was a attempt to add the semi-automated offside decision functionality to the PL agenda for last June but enough clubs, including Liverpool, objected.There May be another attempt next June.}

12.) 04 Oct 2023
04 Oct 2023 22:32:52
Ed2- I have the highest respect for you mate. Even when you put me in my place. Admittedly- that’s easy enough- I am an idiot. Really though- I don’t think I’ve ever disagreed with you more than on this topic. It’s not just about pool. It’s about the league as a whole. Every other top European league has been done for match fixing. I find it incredible that the premier league is the only league above such things. Especially when, right now- it feels there are so many things are awry with the game. I respect that you believe a lot of money has gone into keeping up the integrity. But come on- between you and me mate- city have done very well since var has been introduced. Go on- admit it- and set this site on meltdown.

{Ed002's Note - If Liverpool have evidence of match fixing then they should declare it and the matter will be taken very seriously. They have not implied that they do and neither has anyone else except Liverpool supporters.}

13.) 05 Oct 2023
04 Oct 2023 23:24:15
I'm already out Davey. Might watch the Europa but probably not won't be watching the league or motd again. Already tell out of love with the game now I couldn't care less, would rather go watch Bootle or a local team.

14.) 05 Oct 2023
04 Oct 2023 23:31:02
Well city have been cheating for over ten years stevie wonder could could have seen it faster, is it that unthinkable they paid for favourable decisions in title races because we have been consistently done by var to be just human error some refs don't like liverpool imo.

15.) 05 Oct 2023
05 Oct 2023 00:07:41
Why must there be evidence for there to even be plausibility? It’s like arriving somewhere ten minutes earlier than you should have by car and then someone having to prove you were speeding even though you passed no cameras. Or, a little more obscure, someone stealing cheese from a mousetrap. Everyone knows it was the mouse - just the trap didn’t go off. If everyone expects VAR to be the issue then there is your cover.

There’s a particularly prescient episode of 'Inside No.9', where a referee has his own agenda. I won't ruin the twist too much, but it is well worth a look.

Not all crime is organised is all I’m saying and nothing should be ruled out.

16.) 05 Oct 2023
05 Oct 2023 01:17:50
I don’t believe it’s match fixing, but I do believe there is unconscious and/ or conscious bias in referees, and that’s almost impossible to remove from human nature. You can only mitigate it as much as possible through clear and transparent decisions. I also 100% agree with WDW that the technology works, but the use case design is not fit for purpose (yet) and needs to be reviewed. At the moment, the uncertainty in the use case is allowing these biases to come through in full force rather than being managed.

The mix of the two issues is not only Liverpool specific and is multi-faceted. For example Mike Dean choosing not to overrule a decision for his mate through conscious bias, and then VaR giving him the option to do so (actually worse, VARs design also created the situation where the proper use of the technology was seen as throwing the onfield referee under the bus…how is that a good thing? ) . Same situation with the Wolves/ Man Utd non-intervention I believe, where some sort of bias was at play.

In last weeks game it was very Liverpool specific however, whether it was the intervention in Curtis’s penalty, the overlooking of protocol in showing the freeze frame, the decisions on Jotas first yellow, Robbo’s yellow, Salah’s ‘foul’ when through in goal etc….

Conscious or un-conscious, the evidence of last weeks games mass of decisions, mixed with a shocking VAR error that they refused to even debate resolving, was just a horrendous refereeing performance.

If there would be one good thing to come of all this, it would hopefully be refining the use case of VAR to
1) align the use of the technology to support rather than overrule the onfield ref
2) eliminate any lack of clarity that allows biases to be expressed while hiding behind the laws of the technology
3) simplify and streamline processes and accountability so decisions sit with one person only and no-one can hide behind a ‘system’, or broad organisation, as that just exacerbates the tendencies for biases to be expressed more openly

I would reiterate that not all biases are conscious…. this is not necessarily always cheating, but the outcome is no less impactful as it DOES undermine sporting integrity if we don’t get it right.

17.) 05 Oct 2023
05 Oct 2023 05:13:08
@Ron, because VAR technology is basically old. In essence it has been used in NFL and cricket for donkey’s tears (using modern world concentration span as a measure) . It’s also used in Rugby Union and Rugby League and, no doubt other sports around the world.

I think the FA didn’t bother to read the ‘user guide’. ?.

18.) 05 Oct 2023
05 Oct 2023 05:42:59
I'm pretty sure they are using the automated offside checker in the CL his season. Seems to work well watching the Newcastle game today. Bring that in and with goal line tech we should have the major issues (goals and offsides) covered. The other stuff ie red cards they can use the VAR. Personally w automated offsides and goal line tech I'd sack the VAR off and just go w the on field decisions. I think the blatant cheating by the players would drastically reduce and we might just have a better on field product with less controversy.

19.) 05 Oct 2023
05 Oct 2023 07:15:29
SG you raise excellent points and I suspect that 100s if not 1000s of games in history have been decided by such bias rather than deliberate cheating.

20.) 05 Oct 2023
05 Oct 2023 07:16:21
I guess the only way to take bias out of var decisions is to not have refs on the var panel and to have people independant of the refs there should be no connection between the var and the ref to put a stop to the ok mate looking at it now mate, mike dean great example. Prem refs are the top of the tree for refs, they get good money compared to lower league refs imagine if that was a championship game and you miss out on promotion to the prem as a result of that reffing from saturday, the prem has var to do away with bad decisions yet it seems more bad decisions with var than without so the bias thing and do your mate a favour thing and fill their own pockets is closer to the truth than one would imagine.

21.) 05 Oct 2023
05 Oct 2023 07:47:32
Funny how all the IT professionals comes out now …. Lol sorry couldn’t help it after the comments made about accountants coming out the woodwork when it’s finance related.

22.) 05 Oct 2023
04 Oct 2023 23:15:08
Ed I know a lot of Spurs supporters and every single one of them agrees that there is a good possibility that the game on Saturday was fixed.

They are all laughing and happily taking the 3 points but they know that something was badly wrong with the overall officiating in that game.

My point is it’s not just Liverpool fans who are suggesting that match officials are involved in match fixing. Any football fan with an ounce of intelligence knows that there is so much money in controlling that outcome of football matches it is more likely that there is match fixing in some form than not.

{Ed002's Note - There is no evidence whatsoever that it is fixed.}

23.) 05 Oct 2023
04 Oct 2023 23:15:46
I’m not sure they will in truth. It might help if some of us pool fans questioned decisions that go against our rivals going forward. (providing similar things occur) Instead of what just involves us. I was tongue in cheek earlier with my question but I do appreciate the reply. Have a nice night mate.

24.) 05 Oct 2023
05 Oct 2023 07:13:29
hello ed2. There wonnt be any evidence as th evidence would be v high fees which they get out in uae. all them payments are legal. what a lot of us are saying is they shouldn't be going there in 1st place, totally wrong annd leads to a conversation like this.

{Ed002's Note - They are paid to scale for gams hosted in other countries - why bother if you have nothing useful to say.}

25.) 05 Oct 2023
05 Oct 2023 10:31:04
Pretty sure other premier league club’s fans have made claims of match fixing and corruption.

WWW3 I totally agree with you about the process bit needing to be fine tuned before rolling VAR 2.0. At the same time it is amazingly unbelievable that we are this many years into it and we have this rabble of a mess.

{Ed002's Note - In cases where it has been true.}

26.) 05 Oct 2023
05 Oct 2023 11:29:14
Are you seriously suggest Ed that referees bring in the employ of the owners of Man City, when working in the UAE, do not in anyway have issues regarding conflict of interest? I’m sorry but it is tempting fate and it just should not happen. Officiating in other countries, and/ or in other competitions, is fair enough, but when your salary is being paid by current owners of a club in a league you manage, then common sense should surely prevail?

{Ed002's Note - Who told you they are in the employ of the Manchester City owners when in the UAE. They are paid to an agreed scale and are not employed or paid for by the State.}

27.) 05 Oct 2023
05 Oct 2023 12:56:37
Luckily, Daniel Craig is a Liverpool fan and is currently on an assignment somewhere in Manchester even as we speak.

28.) 05 Oct 2023
05 Oct 2023 13:12:41
IT question about VAR……have they tried turning it off and on again?

29.) 05 Oct 2023
05 Oct 2023 14:06:46
@Magico, it is the people running it that should be turned of and turned back on, if you asked me.

30.) 05 Oct 2023
05 Oct 2023 14:06:52
@Tom27, I must admit, that was hilarious. I was just shocked that this whole VAR process was the same as the job I do. It's really not that complicated BUT somehow, the PGMOL and Webbo made it like rocket science and like you have to have a degree in VAR resolution stdies to do the job.