23 Jan 2023 09:33:38
Klopp is one of the best managers we've ever had. Most Liverpool supporters consider the Klopp years to be a golden period for the club. During this time Liverpool have been part of that debate you always hear in the media about the best teams ever; compared with Ferguson's Utd, Mourinho's Chelsea and Guardiola's City (not to mention various Liverpool teams and others from further back in history) . We've had the best keeper in the world, the best centre half in the world, the best full backs in the world, the best defensive midfielder in the world. We've had one of our greatest ever goal scorers who is ahead of Owen and Dalglish, and will imminently go ahead of Fowler. We've had players who were in the running for the Balon d'Or.

All of that is reasonable and warranted I think. Some of it is fact. Some of it more subjective but a representation of the terms in which Liverpool, Klopp and the players have been viewed.

And yet we find ourselves in a position where this golden period could end with us winning the same number of league titles as Leicester and Arsenal in the same period that Klopp has been manager. Klopp, Ranieri and Arteta on level terms. Of course, there were a few years at the start where Klopp was building from almost nothing but regardless, we've had a sustained period where all of the above has been true.

So have we under-achieved? Typically the great teams win multiple league titles and/ or multiple European cups. Would we view 1 x league title, 1 x European Cup, 1 x FA Cup and 1 x League Cup as a return that tallies with being one of the best teams in the world, one of the best in history, one of our best ever managers, some of the best players in the world? Or have we just been exceedingly unlucky? Three of the nine highest points tallies of all-time have been achieved by Liverpool in the Klopp years but only one of them was good enough to win the league. A goal or two in the other direction and we'd have won a couple more titles. We lost two European Cup finals, one of them largely due to one of the most calamitous goal keeping performances ever. We could quite easily be talking about three league titles and two European Cups for Klopp.

1.) 23 Jan 2023
23 Jan 2023 09:56:08
The frustration is, if he'd been backed with more funds I'm pretty sure we would have had more to show for it. And we wouldn't have been talking about the end of an era now.

2.) 23 Jan 2023
23 Jan 2023 10:14:25
That would be my frustration as well Thom. When u look at backing arteta has got from his owners and he's had a couple of v poor finishes in last couple of seasons but they've backed him steadily.
People will say its shiny toys we want or we children playing fifa, it not it just to see club do well and thrive.

3.) 23 Jan 2023
23 Jan 2023 10:20:56
Nonsense Thom. How you have taken that post and turned it around on the owners is just ridiculous.
Money can buy players but it can also buy problems. We succeeded because we had a core of players that might not have been the best when they arrived but became the best whilst they were here.
We bought Keita as the best midfielder in Germany and Thiago as the best midfielder in the world. Neither have worked out and have actually taken us backwards.
It’s too simplistic to say if he’d spent more we would’ve been more successful. The only way that works is if you can spend, spend and spend again like City or Chelsea. Then you can afford the mistakes and just replace them with another £60-£100m player until it works. That type of spending is not realistic for any club apart from City, Chelsea, PSG or now Newcastle.
I’d say it’s been a very successful spell we’ve been up against the a club that can do exactly what I’ve just mentioned and we’ve gone toe to toe.
I don’t think it’s the end of the success either I think people are writing us off way too early.

4.) 23 Jan 2023
23 Jan 2023 10:24:02
Unless Klopp wants to leave himself, I think he'll be around for a while longer yet. As long as he is honest enough about some of the recent mistakes he's made and the new owners provide the resources that match our ambitions, then I don't see why he can't build the dynasty we all want to see. Getting ahead of United's 20 titles is still a realistic possibility, even if it feels far away at the moment. And we're always in with a chance of adding to our CL count.

The only thing that is regrettable is his trust and loyalty in some players that are either not good enough or past their past. He may never admit that but the evidence is there.

Ultimately, while records may say otherwise, fans will remember how they felt during his leadership. And I suspect most memories will be filled with more high moments than lows, or the current (hopefully temporary) frustrations.

5.) 23 Jan 2023
23 Jan 2023 10:46:13
In fairness, I don’t know if the success we had afterwards would have played out has it did had Kyiv not happened. The butterfly effect is very real and every thing that happens previously leads to a meticulously crafted reality that could have been very different. In a game that is defined by such fine margins, this seems obvious.

As for last season, I agree that not strengthening the midfield did hurt us, but once again people are using the animosity towards the owners to deflect from Klopps own failings. The problems started last year. We didn’t dominate games from start to finish, our in game management was poor. We threw many leads away in the first half of the season, and by the end we weren’t getting going in matches at all until the 60th minute. We got to three cup finals and scored in none of them. We still had many many gears left to use in Paris, but we didn’t.

I don’t want to be such a downer, but I really wish people would stop peddling the ‘we nearly won the quad’ line. ‘Nearly’ doesn’t mean that we did. There’s a reason that we didn’t and we should be honest about those reasons. We blagged two cup finals and couldn’t seal the two big ones when it came down to it because we were playing such poor football.

I don’t believe in luck. Everything has an explanation and like anything in life, you play your percentages. We are where we are because of the amazing things that Klopp has done, but he isn’t perfect. It cannot be the case that whenever it goes right, it’s all down to him (i agree that it is), but whenever it goes wrong it’s due to ‘luck’ or the ownership thwarting him.

But yeah, long story short, I think you can excuse anything that went wrong up until the end of the 2019/ 2020 season. CV is probably the only thing that I can say was actually extremely unlucky, as that season didn’t even count as football in my eyes and was just horrendous. It robbed us of our momentum and was a costly and taxing time for everyone at the club. A whole season wasted. But after that, our failure to accumulate any of the big trophies is down to him.

Having said that, still everything to play for in Europe this season! Though I don’t hold much hope?.

6.) 23 Jan 2023
23 Jan 2023 11:19:54
Absolute nonsense Beckers, you've immediately rushed to defend the owners for some bizarre reason. We had an excellent core group of players, the best I've ever seen us have and nobody has asked for us to spend like City or PSG - that's just another easy cop out.

Point is, we were very sensible with the finances so we should have had room for one or two more. Football is a game of very small margins and we have lost titles by a single point and lost finals by a single goal.

Last season, we dropped a load of points in December/ January because we were short in midfield. One more win would've won us the title

People also forget in that awful season in 20/ 21, we were actually top of the League going into christmas, before we ran out of centre backs

2018/ 19 you could make an argument one more attacker in the squad would've got us over the line as well, but that one is a bit more vague.

The bottom line is, we had an incredible team put together by Klopp and the likes of Edwards on the board (and others I haven't mentioned) . A tiny bit more in terms of incoming was all we needed, and there was room to do that.

That's even putting aside the way we have allowed the midfield to regress to what it is now. Once again, the owners have done some good things. But the investment is the ONLY thing where we could have done more. Not Klopp, not the players, not the recruitment team identifying the players.

When people stop being eternally grateful for business men running a business we might actually see that. And please stop with the extremes, there is plenty of room in between almost zero net spend and City/ PSG spending. Nobody has asked for that.

7.) 23 Jan 2023
23 Jan 2023 11:28:02
It’s a bit simplistic to boil it down to no of prem titles.

Firstly, Arsenal haven’t won one yet.

Secondly, how many times have these other teams amassed over 90 points which is usually plenty to win the title only to come within a point of the last day?

How many champions leagues have they won? How many champs league finals have they been in?

Good luck to arteta but he still would be hungry in klopp’s shadow for a while yet.

8.) 23 Jan 2023
23 Jan 2023 11:43:44
Keita best player in Germany when we bought him ?? What utter nonsense. Thiago got player of the year when we paid a premium for Keita. He didn't even make team of the season.

9.) 23 Jan 2023
23 Jan 2023 11:50:58
I was excited about Keita to be fair, even more so after his debut when he looked like the final piece of the jigsaw. Shame how it turned out, but I don't think anyone can be blamed for that. My only issue is the fact we didn't cut losses years ago.

10.) 23 Jan 2023
23 Jan 2023 12:11:42
Firstly Thom, I’m not defending the owners. I’m simply amazed that you have taken what the OP said and turned it against the owners to suit your own agenda. Every club bar the ones I’ve mentioned has a budget. It’s basic economics, you can’t spend what you don’t have. In fact we have, in recent seasons especially, been spending what we don’t have which puts pressure on the financial stability of the club as we’ve seen before with the mess that was Gillet and Hicks.
I just think it’s wrong for football fans to criticise the club’s lack of spending when they have no idea of the financial situation of the club.
During the 20/ 21 season we needed centre backs and ended up with a £3m purchase and a loan signing. What does that tell you? That the owners are stingy and wanted to keep all of the money to themselves? No. It tells you that the financial situation was extremely precarious and they couldn’t risk blowing millions and risking the financial security of the club.
The current midfield crisis is not down to the owners not spending money it’s down to the fact that we are after the world’s top talents. Gone are the days when we will ‘make do’ with some no mark from Norway, we might as well play the kids rather than buy squad fillers.
When you are trying to prize top players away from big clubs it’s very difficult and expensive. Let’s hope we get Bellingham over the line (which I expect we will) and maybe that will shut a few people up.
ORT every big club in Europe was after Keita when we signed him he was flying in Germany. To the point where Klopp said he was inundated with congratulatory messages after we signed him. But hey we don’t like Keita do we so we will just forget about that. It was probably the owners fault anyway.

11.) 23 Jan 2023
23 Jan 2023 12:54:50
Yes you are Becker. Did you not ask how can FSG be responsible for the CL final?

I can tell you. We lost Salah and had to replace him with Adam ducking Lallana. If only we have quality cover in depth we wouldn’t lose that final. We never had the depth to Compete for all the 4 completions every year. We always had to sacrifice the cups for league and CL and are still doing it.

Two years back we lost all our center backs and had to rely on Fabinho at the back and what did we get in January? Ozan Kabak and Davies!

12.) 23 Jan 2023
23 Jan 2023 12:36:29
RR, I think we've under achieved if I'm honest. I think we're short at least 1 Premier League title and one Champions League title in Klopp's time here.

13.) 23 Jan 2023
23 Jan 2023 13:30:40
Reality is the failures have been as collective as the success.

Personally, I think the "we are cleverer than everyone else" approach to football has bit us on the backside more recently. Teams caught up on analytics, business models, recruitment approaches and tactics. Meanwhile we naval gazed.

Hopefully new owners will allow us to reset our approach.

14.) 23 Jan 2023
23 Jan 2023 13:36:57
Hulk I never mentioned the CL final I think you’re thinking of someone else.
My own thoughts on CL finals and close run leagues have and will never change. You have to get to a final first and then it’s a one off game that you can win or lose. The point is you were in the hunt and that’s all we as fans can ever ask for.
Same with league titles. If you are in the hunt until the last day then I’m happy with that. Sometimes it will go for you and sometimes it will go against you it’s that tight but all we can ask for as fans is to be good enough to be in with a shout.

Take last season for example. City playing Everton and Rodri clearly handles the ball in the box in the last minute of the game. VAR inexplicably says it’s inconclusive and doesn’t award a penalty. VAR is then rightly vilified by all and the PGMOL are forced to apologise to Everton for such a blatantly wrong decision going against them.

Had that decision gone the correct way and Richarlison dispatch the penalty we would be champions. That’s how tight it is. One decision could’ve changed everything.
Likewise if Courtois had not had the game of his life in the CL final we could’ve won that too and then we are immortal.

Woulda, coulda, shoulda you could say but the margins are so small that a split second can turn you from ‘the owners are rubbish and needed to invest in the team it’s all their fault we didn’t win’ to ‘we are the best English team in football history’.

With regards to the owners investing in the team, football is a business and we have to accept that sometimes the money isn’t available and sometimes the right players aren’t available. What we definitely don’t want is the owners spending money we don’t have on the wrong players because that’s a one way ticket to football obscurity and financial meltdown.

What we are seeing right now is a building of a squad that can hopefully compete in the near future. We know what players we want and we know the positions we need to fill so we are ticking them off as the right players become available. We have no control over what players become available first and it just so happens that our preferred midfield options have either not become available yet or have decided to join other clubs. I find it so short sighted of people to castigate the manager and the owners for not buying a midfield player. They obviously know they need midfield players! Klopp is working through his squad right now trying to find a midfield solution but he will not throw the long term plan out of the window for short term gratification. If the long term plan is Bellingham then we should wait and make do with what we have then have a proper tilt at getting him in the summer.

15.) 23 Jan 2023
23 Jan 2023 13:27:59
OP asked if we had underachieved? I gave a reason why I think it's possible we might have done. So the answer fit the original post, I'll add a trigger warning next time I dare criticise our saviours.

16.) 23 Jan 2023
23 Jan 2023 13:29:50
Beckers, save it. According to some people, FSG are to blame for a guy getting injured or being off form. They are to blame cos Klopp decided NOT to sign a midfielder even tho, they provided him the funds to do so. They are to blame for C. V crippling our ability to spend like we may have wanted to when lockdown season happened. Did you also know that FSG are to blame for me and you catching a cold this winter? If you don't know then, now you know. The fact that a poster had to go back to 17/ 18 where we lost a final to RM in the CL cos we had Lallana replace Salah at a moment when we were still building the team, tells you how cringeworthy this nonsense has become.

Ed02 said that we had to take in some debt so we could afford Jota and Jota (and Thiago) were able to be signed due to the 5 pound a week (lol) payment plan they agreed upon when they arrived at the start of the real C. V season in 20/ 21 when our revenue streams got cut off, something ED02 mentioned on here repeatedly at the time BUT none of that computes cos this is the society we live in now where if the truth does not match your emotions, the fangs come out.

Also, haven't you heard? If you dare speak the truth about what FSG has actually done right then, you are automatically deemed to be defending them cos clearly, you saying that and also saying that they have made mistakes as well are two thoughts that CANNOT exist in the same universe.

17.) 23 Jan 2023
23 Jan 2023 14:21:06
Again Becker Pecker how long do we wait for the best player's in the World to be available. It's a question you ignore time and time again?

18.) 23 Jan 2023
23 Jan 2023 14:27:29
Oli I know I shouldn’t bite but I can’t help it ?. So much of the nonsense that gets spouted these days is just so illogical I try (in vain) to get people to look at the bigger picture.

I can’t believe that someone would actually complain and look for someone to blame after losing a CL final. How arrogant do you have to be to demand that not only does your team have to get to the final but they have to win it otherwise it’s just not good enough?

Likewise in the Premier League. How dare we get to 97 points and not win it. How dare we be 25 minutes from winning it last season. If it wasn’t for those pesky owners we would win everything every year!

To many spoilt brats in this world these days that want everything right now and if they don’t get it it’s everybody’s fault but their own.

19.) 23 Jan 2023
23 Jan 2023 15:50:47
Beckers bro, I hear everything you are saying BUT this is the era we are in. My emotional rants/ opinions should now be taken with the same value as you speaking actual facts about things that actually happened and if you refuse to do so as you have done here, they call you this or that name or a "Top Red" (whatever da football that means" or an FSG sympathiser (again, what da football, really? ) or other straw man crap as if there is NO middle ground or grey area in such nuanced discussions anymore.

As you have said, blaming the owners for us not winning the CL final or the title are just takes that nobody with any sense should pay attention to. Now keep in mind, that these people give NO credit to FSG for ALL the trophies we have actually won. They say Klopp won them, as if Klopp hired the owners and not the other way around. But heaven forbid we lose a CL final to Real Madrid of all clubs (not Spurs, btw), all the blame goes to them and they want them gone. Again, delusional thinking.

Like I said, it won't stop cos instead of our fans being happy with what we have won while at the same time clamouring for more, many of our fans are flat just act like jilted, jealous people always looking over what is happening elsewhere that they act like spoiled brats if it is not happening here, just like trust fund babies do when they throw a strop cos they didn't get the same gifts their mates' parents got their kids. Sad state of society, me thinks.

20.) 23 Jan 2023
23 Jan 2023 16:27:41
I literally only said a bit more loosening of the purse strings might have lead to one or two more trophies, I never said we should throw John Henry in prison. Becker is the one who dived in with two feet at the mere suggestion of such a thing.

21.) 23 Jan 2023
23 Jan 2023 15:21:52
ORT nobody has ever asked me that question so I’m not sure how I’ve ignored it.

My answer, now you’ve asked the question, is the club will have a list of preferred targets. By all accounts Bellingham is top of that list. The club obviously have a certain degree of confidence that they can get that deal done or they would move on to the next on the list.

Caceido might be on that list too at say, number 4 but why would we sign our 4th choice in January when there’s a possibility we could sign our 1st choice in June?

That’s just childish short term instant gratification. What separates adults from children (some adults) is that we can postpone gratification to allow us to make the right choices.

We might actually end up at the 4th choice midfield player but not until we’ve tried and failed with choices 1,2 and 3.

Like I said in a previous post we are building a squad and we will have targets in lots of different positions. If any of those targets become available at a price we think is suitable we will act (like with Gakpo) .

I think most people would agree though that we have decent forward options already so Gakpo is being added to an already strong part of the squad. This allows you a bit of leeway because if he doesn’t hit the ground running we have other players to come back and step up whilst he gets himself up to speed.

In the midfield we don’t have that luxury. Our next move has to be the right move as the midfield is the weakest part of the squad and we don’t have the players to cover if it goes wrong.

For me if there is ANY chance of getting Bellingham in the summer we should try everything we can to make that happen. If that means playing Keita, Bajcetic, Elliott or whoever for the rest of the season then so be it.

And before you say it, if we are not in the CL next season Bellingham will still sign. He will see our recent history and the squad we are building and be confident that we won’t be out of it for long. Any player that wants to win the CL would consider Liverpool a good side to join as we’ve been in 3 of the last 5 finals and have one of the best pedigrees in Europe in that competition.

22.) 23 Jan 2023
23 Jan 2023 18:28:08
I wouldn’t say I jumped in with 2 feet Thom it was more a tough slide tackle but my foot wasn’t raised and I did get the ball first.
We are fortunate to have had the success we’ve had over the last 5 years and I sometimes think people forget the messes we have been in for the 25 years that preceded them.
No offence mate, keep the faith we’ll be up there again soon enough.

23.) 23 Jan 2023
23 Jan 2023 19:01:33
Yellow card minimum in this day in age I'm afraid.

But yeah I get where you're coming from, 2 ways of looking at the same thing essentially. #for me it's wanting to squeeze every big moment we can out of this team because who knows what future teams will look like.

Also, would love a couple more European Cups before the inevitable super league happens and all the big teams are playing home games in Dubai and Kansas.

24.) 23 Jan 2023
23 Jan 2023 19:28:25
Yellow card? I swear they are taking tackling out of the game these days! We’ve all gone soft! ?
Don’t you worry mate it is blatantly obvious we need top midfield reinforcements and they will come we just have to be patient.
All this talk of us being finished is way too premature. Once the new players are bedded in and we’ve added a couple we’ll be up there again.
People are also lauding Arsenal right now for bringing through young players like Saka and Nketia but we get criticised for playing Elliott, Carvalho and Bajcetic. This season will give them much needed experience and they will be all the better for it.
The future is bright we just need to get through this period and stick with the team and manager.

25.) 23 Jan 2023
23 Jan 2023 19:45:01
I don’t think we have underachieved. In any other era we would have been the best team in the world for a number of years by some distance. We arguably were for a very short period when we were simultaneously English, European and World Champions. We just happened to be competing with a City team that are one of the best I have ever seen, probably second only to Pep’s own Barcelona team. They were more consistently better than us, that doesn’t mean we weren’t great. Just frustrates me that unlike Utd for a long Period, Chelsea for a long period and City currently, LFC never seem to be able to sustain it. We looked amazing in short bursts under Houllier, Benitez and Rodgers and I thought Klopp had finally made it stick. I guess not. So disappointing.

26.) 23 Jan 2023
23 Jan 2023 22:45:44
Paul Tierney reffing I’m afraid ?

But yeah I tend to agree, 2 or 3 new additions of elite level and we can get back on top. I actually think Arsenal improving will benefit us in the long run, more quality means not having to get 98+ points to win the title and teams actually start taking points off each other instead of just rolling over for City. The late 2000s type title races were always fun with four teams involved up until about March. Can see it being like that again.