20 Dec 2018 09:26:30
thanks for the responses Ed001.

in view of what is happening at Utd now, i think it underscores the importance of not just having good managers and players, but also good chairman, board, chief executives.

think i read somewhere before that one of our managers (could have been Shankly, Paisley, Daglish) learned about football club management from John Smith, our chairman during our most successful era. there were even mentions that if he was the one backing Evans rather than Moore, Liverpool may have never fell of the perch. Of course, he passed on shortly after stepping down, which was a big loss for the club i would imagine.

I believe John Smith was the one who established The Liverpool Way (which is lost by now) of running a club, doing business and developing the line of succession of managers within the club.

Perhaps any of the Eds who have more insight or info about boardroom, executive leadership matters can shed some light on the importance of club leadership (and the stories about John Smith.

{Ed001's Note - TV Williams was the one who brought in Shanks, Smith, if I remember correctly followed on from Williams. It does make a huge difference, but Smith never developed that, it had been something the club had tried to do a number of times. Even the appointment of Shanks was in part based on him having played for the club during the war as a guest player.

Club leadership is everything. If it is not right at the top, then it cascades down from there to affect everything else. However to really get into it, I think it would be best to ask Ed002 about this, as he is closer to people involved in these areas, while I am just talking about research and observations gained of how it affects the clubs.}

1.) 20 Dec 2018
20 Dec 2018 09:52:50
Great post and questions Sgynwa.
It would be interesting to hear ED02 view on this.
Also thanks ED01 for your input.

{Ed002's Note - My knowledge of TVW is limited and it goes back a while since I looked at it. Aside from Shankley I think it was also TVW who got Bob Paisley in to the club - all of this culminating in taking a second division side and dragging them to the absolute top of the English game and in the 1970s to the top of the world game. As Ed001 said, the leadership is everything. Liverpool built a sustainable structure in the 1960s - I appreciate it was a very long time ago, but the fundamentals remain. It is true also of Manchester United - like it or not. But they have lost their way. It is also true of Arsenal even further back, and more recently of the likes of Manchester City - they may have money but in terms of creating a community club in the new millenium they have gone further than any other European side. People at certain clubs have worked hard to instill more than just a winning mentality, they have worked to instill an ethic that is sustainable. They don't want fans bringing a bad reputation that was all too common in England and Italy in the 1970s, and sadly seems to be making a return. They are looking for the clubs and all of those associated with the club to stand proud and to try and buid that "family" feeling. It is harder with the money taking a front seat but that tradition remains. It is all very well and put aside the new money in the game but it is cyclic. Chelsea are truly devastated about recent events - it is a club owned and run by Jewish people who are proud and will take whatever action is necessary to get rid of the tiny faction causing major issues. Liverpool are a side that has been repeatedly dragged in front of the beak over the behavior of fans in Europe - they are desperate to avoid that. I spoke with Igli Tare a couple of weeks ago and he was saying how hard Lazio has worked to fix the reputation of being a club accused constantly of being racially inclined. Players would not, at one time, move there. In England we at one time, not so long ago, saw a premier league side accused of being racist as well. So leadership is everything, I don't like any sort of cheating and I have been vocal about Klopp and tapping up and particularly the VVD affair, but Liverpool do have generally good leadership. I have recently been vocal about Manchester United and particularly about Woodward's role - that needs fixing. Mourinho is a fantastic coach, I do know him reasonably well, and he should never have taken the job in Manchester - it was bound to end in tears. Chelsea has a leadership that see coaches like players, if it is not working, cut the problem out - recent history shows that to be a good model. Manchester City has a leadership that might be new but cares very much and does a lot for the community. Arsenal to some extent remains a lost soul. Everton will continue in transition for a while. Some owners are screwed whatever they do - Mike Ashley is a good example at a club with proud traditions but with little or no grasp of reality. If Rafa has enough and walks then all I see is a slightly bewildered Rodgers coming in. The fans need to accept that the "boo troom" type approaches are simply laughable as the game continues to change at a rapid pace, but the fundamentals of having good leadership don't change and gratefully most English sides are well placed. Liverpool are in the best position they have been for more than 20 years but need still to deliver.}

2.) 20 Dec 2018
20 Dec 2018 11:01:33
Am still amazed that all these so called clever people behind the appointment of Mourinho. How was that ever going to work.

{Ed002's Note - It was a bad move to appoint Mourinho and a bad move for him to accept. He never sawMU as a progressive club that will adapt to what he thinks they need. He didn't like being in Manchester and there are those there who saw a blue tinge surrounding him. There was a major error in taking on Ibrahimovich - it is disruptive with the kids (although one specific issue has been overcome) and he wanted to move elsewhere. Mkhitaryan was a disaster waiting to happen. Pogba's career belongs in Spain or Italy - certainly not Manchester.}

3.) 20 Dec 2018
20 Dec 2018 11:24:41
Really really interesting posts Ed002. Cheers for sharing all that.

4.) 20 Dec 2018
20 Dec 2018 11:48:49
But why do you think it was such a bad fit between Mourinho and ManU, Ed002? ManU is still in the global elite (in terms of popularity, facilities, financial strength etc etc) while Mourinho's career record speaks for itself. He may have some personality quirks but that's not why managers get hired - the results are what really matter, and his are still top level. Was there a massive disconnect in what the club management and what Mourinho wanted to do? Or was it simply a job that was at the wrong place at the wrong time?

{Ed002's Note - It was a bad fit because he did not want to live in Manchester and did not feel he had the support of the club. From the perspective of the club, two very senior people saw the blue tinge and the club did not support him with changing the players that he wanted. It was never going to work.}

5.) 20 Dec 2018
20 Dec 2018 12:03:36
Thanks for the info eds.

6.) 20 Dec 2018
20 Dec 2018 12:08:47
wow ed. thank you for that detailed response. enjoyed reading. enjoy the holiday season!

{Ed002's Note - You are welcome.}

7.) 20 Dec 2018
20 Dec 2018 12:11:09
Alright, Ed002, thanks. It's odd that at this level, "2 very senior people" would see a bias towards a past team. We are not robots, but humans, and it's perfectly natural that a person have fond memories of a situation where he acquired considerable fame and won titles. Mourinho is a seasoned professional, and i doubt strongly that his past teams would affect any of his current work. Klopp doesn't do it often, but he talks fondly of Mainz and Dortmund and nobody really questions his current loyalty. Where will they find a manager with a "clean slate" and yet propel them up to the top where they would like to be?

{Ed002's Note - These are two very senior people who have held that view since he joined. It cannot be equated to Klopp or others.}

8.) 20 Dec 2018
20 Dec 2018 17:31:45
Thanks for the info ed002. Extremely interesting as always.

Given what you have said why on earth did both sides decide to extend his contract? Particularly from the boards side of things (I can understand why Jose would) . Did they just get taken away with him doing so well in his first season?

{Ed002's Note - really don’t know.}

9.) 20 Dec 2018
20 Dec 2018 18:59:21
Saw Bobby Charlton deep in conversation with Woodward at anfield on Sunday. Just out of curiosity ed, does he have any say at utd?

{Ed001's Note - yes.}

10.) 20 Dec 2018
20 Dec 2018 20:16:15
For me United made the first moves in modern football. back in the late 80’s Martin Edwards knew Fergie needed major funds to compete and backed him majorly from around the 89 season. The club floated in the stock exchange twice, the first in 91, providing the cash to expand old Trafford. Then came the advertising deals, in a nutshell the grand grew from there.

As I’ve said before, from 1992 I witnessed Liverpool fall further and further behind united both off and on the pitch. Moore’s and parry held the club back majorly in my opinion. That includes selling out to Gillet and Hicks.

Fast forward to today and I think Mike Gordon and Micheal Edwards are doing a pretty decent job. Yes Klopp hasn’t won anything yet but there’s a really good feeling around the club, I feel it on match day. Let’s not forget, it took Fergie 3 years to win his first honours.

As for Jose, I remember when he first came to the PL everyone loved his swagger. But he’s lost his mojo in my opinion. I thought it started to go after his second stint at Chelsea, first there was the ugly issue with Eva Canerio, and then recently accused of tax fraud, had to pay an out of court settlement?

Speaking to some of my mates in London who are CFC season ticket holders, they say he completely lost the dressing room, espacally Hazard, which would account for his dip in form.

As for not being supported, he was certainly supported in the transfer market, maybe not the arm around the shoulder. It’s a shame as I really thought Jose was a breath of fresh air when he graced us in 2004.

11.) 21 Dec 2018
20 Dec 2018 22:53:05
Threads like this is like this is what I love and appreciate from this website.
The contributions and insight from both ED's are phenomenal to say the least.

This is what you don't get reading all the social mead or back page tripe put out everyday.

And a great credit must go to the OP for invoking such a great thread with such valuable opinions from all.

12.) 21 Dec 2018
21 Dec 2018 12:20:23
thanks for the responses Eds. very insightful.

glad to know Liverpool is in a much better shape now as we did fell behind in the 90s and it showed on and off the pitch.

i had no doubt Utd had strong leadership as well, no club can sustain that level of success without things going right at the top.

it also became evident that Chelsea and Man City had it right as well. much as many people despise them and attribute their recent success only to the huge investments, money alone cannot buy you success. these clubs could have easily squandered all their wealth on managers and players that will never win titles and at the same time, distance the fans, present an image of the club that isn't palatable to various parties. but from what i can see, these two clubs are not just winning fans globally, but also friends, networks, connections, standing in the game that is also essential to the success of the club (and it seems that the current Liverpool ownership learned this through the hard way, but they learned i hope) .

while a bootroom approach may not be fully feasible in the modern game, i perceive that the idea of recruiting the right people
(not just managers and players), developing your staff team, establishing and sustaining a strong positive culture remains pivotal - again, its back to leadership.

hopefully Liverpool's current leadership will strengthen and we can look forward to sustained success in the next few decades.

P. S. Owners / Bosses like Mike Ashley do make you wonder how did they get to where they are at in the first place. Cause they seem to mess anything that they touch! but having worked in large organisations with very poor senior leadership, it really isn't a surprise anymore, just a wonder that sticks in the mind.