12 Jun 2018 12:06:41
I saw a post a little further down by 87red where it was discussed whether teams "need" a world class goalie to be successful and some examples were given of "poor" keepers who have been very successful for their clubs. And I just wanted to give my response.

Using the examples that were given there are clear factors to why those GKs have been "successful" despite their apparent flaws.

Hart had probably the most commanding and organising CB in the world in front of him. Kompany didn't need any help from his keeper to organise his defence he just did it, and that's why they were so successful. You could've put almost any GK behind him and the defence wouldn't have suffered. Hart was called upon so infrequently that it didn't matter if he fluffed a few as they would invariably score enough to win the game anyway.

Schmeichel is not a good keeper at all. He benefitted a lot from playing behind a solid and unchanged back 4 who were in turn protected very well by the best midfielder on the planet. There was no pressure on him whatsoever because the team in front of him were well organised and played almost every game together. They didn't need any organisation from their keeper he was just able to get in the way of any shots that managed to find their way through.

Navas plays in the team which most would argue is the best in the world. Simple as that. Of course they are going to win things, regardless of who is in goal. La Liga is so uncompetitive outside the top 3 that they could've played "rush goalies" and still won loads.

Exactly the same for Victor Valdes. He was playing behind one of the greatest teams ever seen. He had so little to do he could've brought a deck chair to most matches. He was able to be poor because Barcelona had so much possession and gave away so few shots against that it didn't matter.

Now conversely look at United. Defensively they have no organisation whatsoever, they are all over the place (getting more solid now under Mourinho but still no real leaders on the pitch) . But they have an incredible keeper, in my opinion the best in the world. He has single handedly won them between 10-15 points the last few seasons despite the lack of quality around him.

Liverpool don't have great defensively solidity. We don't have a back 4 that plays 50 games a season together, we don't have a defence that is protected by an incredibly solid midfield. We play open, expansive fluid football. We need a keeper that instils confidence in their back 4, whoever is playing. We need a keeper that takes control of organising the defence. We need a keeper that can win us those 5, 10, 15 points a season like De Gea does for United.

That's why we need to sign a top keeper. Not just because we are spending for spending's sake but because we play the type of football that requires our GK to be heavily involved.

I would much rather get a world class keeper and not sign a £60mill midfielder than settle for second best for a keeper and get yet another "skill" player further up the pitch.

I'm not saying we need to build from the back like some believe, but I do believe that if we had a world class keeper this season we would've been an awful lot closer to winning things across the board.

We can't build a team like Barcelona had in front of Valdes, we can't buy players to the calibre that Madrid have put in front of Navas or City put in front of Hart, we need to be smart and fill the biggest gaps first.

We've improved in other areas already. Time to go all out for the best of the best in this important position.

1.) 12 Jun 2018
12 Jun 2018 12:42:34
Excellent post RedDawn.
Fully agree with your points.

2.) 12 Jun 2018
12 Jun 2018 12:43:39
Schmeichel not a good keeper? Seriously?

3.) 12 Jun 2018
12 Jun 2018 12:43:52
RedDawn, please tell me which realistic GK targets are there that fulfill this criteria then. Oblak has the best defense in the world in front of him and his kicking is wayward. What makes you think he will be able to adapt considering GKs do not improve as much as outfield players even with the best coaching (and certainly not with Archterberg)? Alisson seems to want Real and I don't think he is going to solve our GK issues entirely either, certainly not for 80 million euros. DDG, Courtois and Neuer are no goes and the rest are no better than Karius imo. Karius at least knows how to play as a sweeper GK unlike our other second rate targets like Pope and Butland.
We need to accept that Karius might be the best solution right now and continue to strengthen our midfield and depth in attack to cover up our defensive deficiencies. City and Real did it, so why can't we?

4.) 12 Jun 2018
12 Jun 2018 12:51:27
I think he means kasper not Peter as kasper is overrated
Up the pool.

5.) 12 Jun 2018
12 Jun 2018 13:02:25
Jurgen - You may disagree that's fine, but in my opinion K. Schmeichel is not a good keeper at all. He is living off his name only. He has been poor for 2 seasons now and did nothing in the title winning season to show that he was anything more than average. He has a Premier League medal, so good for him but I wouldn’t want him anywhere near Liverpool and he has probably found his peak level. Why have none of the bigger clubs targeted him?

Indian Buzzer - You're right, Alisson might not be available and Oblak does have the protection of one of the best defences around. I'm not professing to know the solution just stating that we shouldn't be settling for second best in this very key position. If we can't sign someone who is top drawer then perhaps we sign nobody right now and strengthen elsewhere? But we definitely shouldn’t buy a new keeper to compete with KArius or who isn’t much better.

I have no idea if these players are available but the few that I would say would be a significant step up would be Alisson, Neuer and Horn. Or if we were going to go down the root United did with De Gea and buy a top prospect and stick with him, then Lafont or Meret would be good options.

Like I said, I have no idea if these players are available. Alisson looks like he is but wants a move elsewhere, Horn might be available at the right price and Neuer almost certainly not unless he pushes for a move. Lafont and Meret might well be available but the price would be high for a very young keeper.

In my view we should go all out and try to sign Alisson. He is the only one that seems possible and a big upgrade on what we have. If Neuer were available then he would also fit that description, but he won’t be available.

6.) 12 Jun 2018
12 Jun 2018 13:09:40
Sorry RedDawn I'm slightly confused. You mention teams that have not only won leagues, but won by absolutely crushing opposition over long periods, as winning with average keepers because their forward lines and goalscoring abilities are so good. You talk about teams like City not needing such a great keeper because they have someone else taking charge of the defense. But then you say you'd rather focus our energy on not following in their footsteps and playing to our already overwhelming strengths, but rather leave our strength vulnerable and concentrate on our weakness. I'm just not sure I follow the thought process, surely in your analysis the best thing for us to do would be to consolidate the way that we already win games before breaking the bank on safety measures?

7.) 12 Jun 2018
12 Jun 2018 13:11:51
But you didn’t say Kasper. Just Schmiechel. The description looked very much like Peter and Utd with an unchanged back four and Keane would have been classed as the best. Seeing as you’d mentioned Valdes at Barcelona there was no indication it’s only very recent teams.

8.) 12 Jun 2018
12 Jun 2018 13:34:09
Hjikle – I see your point, but we don’t have the money to be building teams like Real and City did. Certainly not with the market the way it is now. How much would we have to spend now to go and buy players of a standard like Kroos, Modric, Ronaldo and Bale, or Aguero, De Bruyne and Silva?

We don’t have the means to build a squad like they did. Those teams were spending more money than any other and we simply can’t and wouldn’t do that.

My point is that those teams needed at least 8 or 9 world class players in their first 11, and because they had that they were able to not worry about the keeper as much. We don’t have that, we probably have 5 absolutely top class players and a few that could be that good. But we aren’t going to be going out and signing 3 or 4 players who are considered in the very top group in world football, we simply can’t do that.

That’s why, in my opinion, a top class keeper is more valuable to us now than adding another top class forward.

As I said, just my thoughts, happy to have people disagree with me.

And Jurgen, the post was in response to the post earlier from 87red where he talks about Kasper, sorry should’ve made that more clear.

9.) 12 Jun 2018
12 Jun 2018 14:31:46
Sigh.

I was just pointing out that it is possible to win titles without a world class goalie.

We have VVD. There is no reason we can’t have similar success. Our defence was much improved from January onwards and we’ve massively upgraded in midfield. I think our biggest pitfall is a lack of quality options on the bench.

Cities defence is nothing special but their midfield onwards dominate games. I’m just pointing out that we can do that too.

10.) 12 Jun 2018
12 Jun 2018 14:37:08
In defence of 87red, I think his point has been lost in translation.

I thought he has making the point that spending £80m on a goal keeper doesn't improve you as much as spending £80m elsewhere. He then justified his point by providing multiple very good examples of teams who have had success in spite of having a bad keeper.

£80m could get you a good keeper who might save us an extra 5-10 points a year. Or it could sign an attacking midfielder and a back up winger who get us an extra 15 points a season.

That was the way I took his post. I don't think he was saying that it wasn't worth the investment or that a good keeper isn't important. Just that it is the one area of the pitch that you can get away with having an average player, because you can protect them more easily with the 10 men in front.

My apologies 87red if I've misinterpreted your point and put words in your mouth. This was just how I interpreted your point.

11.) 12 Jun 2018
12 Jun 2018 14:38:40
Not sure why you're starting the post with "sigh" mate. I thought we were allowed to have different opinions.

I don't believe we have the players, nor the money to buy the players, that will lead to us being able to dominate the best teams around. Unless we spend a few hundred million this summer we just won't be able to "out City" City.

Hence why I believe that a top class keeper is more important that more forwards right now.

But like I say, if a top class keeper isn't available then stick with what we have I say. Don't go and buy someone slightly better just for the sake of buying someone.

12.) 12 Jun 2018
12 Jun 2018 15:13:11
There’s not many top class goalies available unfortunately. I’d love us to tempt Courtois away from Chelsea but can’t see it. Klopp improves players, whose to say he wouldn’t improve Butland? I’m not a fan but if we get him then believe in Klopp. Splash the cash on a quality bench/ rotating squad. Next season will be a long one.

13.) 12 Jun 2018
12 Jun 2018 16:29:43
Reddawn is spot on, if we only have limited budget and it came into a choice between spending a record amount on a keeper or adding a midfielder we aren't exactly crying out for, id chose to spend the majority on a keeper and use a "small" amount to get Shaqiri, a top draw keeper will make the difference to us.

14.) 12 Jun 2018
12 Jun 2018 16:36:00
I sighed because my point had been completely overlooked. My point as MK said was that all those examples are of teams who’d won titles with average keepers.

If you don’t think we have the budget to improve outfield. How on earth can we afford 80mil on a GK?

15.) 12 Jun 2018
12 Jun 2018 17:39:11
I understand the point but how can we possibly compare ourselves to City or Real etc? Those teams spent hundreds of millions of pounds on their outfield players, more than any other team around save for PSG.

To build an outfield of a similar quality to City or Real we would need to buy 2 or 3 players for £50-100mill each. To get a world class keeper we’ll need to spend £60-100mill once.

My main point was that it's pointless us buying any GK that isn’t absolutely world class, we already have an average keeper, why spend any money on another average keeper? It’s just throwing good money away.

In my opinion a world class keeper can paper over some of the cracks created by having a few lower quality players in the squad, as United have proven with De Gea (they finished 2nd remember, with an awful squad? ) . But adding 1 world class forward for the same price, to an already stellar forward line, can’t paper over the cracks of having a dodgy keeper.

We have an incredible forward line and we have a dodgy keeper. I know where I would be spending my money. Once we are more solid throughout the first 11 we can then start adding depth to the great attacking force we have.

Like I said, just my opinion. Got no problem people disagreeing with it, that’s why we all keep coming back here, for the debate .

16.) 12 Jun 2018
12 Jun 2018 18:00:54
All up for healthy debate red dawn for sure.

Our forward line matches city. We’ve had 100mil revamp of our Cm’s in Keita and Fabinho and we all know we’re looking for an AM in the ilk of Fekir so I’d say our midfield matches theirs.

I don’t think there’s much difference in defensive quality either so from a first 11 point of view we’re basically there.

What we don’t have is cover for the front 3. I can live with our midfield cover as it’s basically who our first choice we’re this last season.

17.) 12 Jun 2018
12 Jun 2018 19:15:34
Strengthen your weaknesses first.

Buy a keeper 👍.