29 Apr 2018 01:14:39
Since I'm on my rant about referees. Ed001, am wondering if there are any referees that have impressed you in the PL and Europe, say in the past 10 years?

I'm only started learning more about how to judge referees in recent times, so am limited in this area. Though I've been told that Graham Poll and Howard Webb were good, I'm not too sure what to make of their interpretations of the law in their current media role, and of course, I remember them more for being unable to count to 3 and overseeing and enabling a football death match respectively.

{Ed001's Note - in the last 10 years? No. Poll was dire, and Webb was Man Utd's 12th man. The Italian guy Collina was decent in Europe (depending on who he was overseeing), but in Italy he has a terrible rep and was reffing at the time of all the match fixing which surely has to be a major worry for any ref who was around then? Even if they were not involved, they must have known it was going on and most of it did involve referees, so it is difficult to believe he is clean of any taint.}

1.) 29 Apr 2018
29 Apr 2018 07:47:03
Officials got penalty decision wrong.

However, for a manager to not shake the assistant referees hand is not on.

2.) 29 Apr 2018
29 Apr 2018 08:29:06
Spot on, Ed. Prem refs have been dire for the last decade. In Europe, Colina was okay BUT as you said, he was vilified and very controversial in Italy and they could not wait to see the back of him. But I would like to think that refs Urs Mier, Anders Frisk and Gilles Vessiere were pretty good. What do you think of these choices, Ed?

{Ed001's Note - I honestly am not filled with confidence with any referee. Not one.}

3.) 29 Apr 2018
29 Apr 2018 08:33:49
AggerDo, your opinion is valid BUT I disagree with it. Klopp has been getting screwed over by the refs (and linesmen) for the past few weeks. Remember the Spurs lino who helped gift Spurs a point and the one who denied us a blatant pen last night? Or the one who screwed us out of another pen vs WBA?

I remember Klopp shaking hands with the Spurs lino and the others so can you blame him for not doing the same thing to a lino who screwed him? Please, other managers made a career out of openly berating refs and even mentioning them by name so let the guy show his frustration provided he did not openly berate them in public.

4.) 29 Apr 2018
29 Apr 2018 08:54:51
Refs are pretty shambolic at the moment but what can we do to improve it? We have the benefit of seeing incidents from any angle about 30 times at any speed, they see it from 1 angle at full speed. It probably doesn't help that these guys fitness levels are nowhere near to the standard of players either. Yes there is a letter of law but the high percentage of decisions are subjective. Just like a fan sees things differently to the fan sat next to him it happens with officials. What one sees as a foul another doesn't which leads to no consistency. Apart from us donning the black shirts, doing the courses and showing them how it is done I honestly have no idea how these officials can improve? The governing bodies are raking in the money so I'm sure the next tv or sponsorship deal is way above referee improvement on their things to do lists.

5.) 29 Apr 2018
29 Apr 2018 09:25:19
I have no respect for our refs their all shambolic.

6.) 29 Apr 2018
29 Apr 2018 10:42:57
Klopp should shake their hands.
This game is not personal, the officials do not have anything personal against Klopp.
The game is over, everyone should shake hands.

7.) 29 Apr 2018
29 Apr 2018 10:48:11
Must take issue with some of the ill informed comments on here
Referees and assistants are incredibly fit to keep up with play but have you ever tried to sprint like a 24 year old athelete when you are late 30’s or 40’s?
The real issue is there are very few human beings with the life experience to referee a premier league game before they are 30 years old and the assistant referee role is an art form in itself. I know of two fantastic young officials from Merseyside who are coming through, one is already an established premier league assistant and the other is the best Wirral referee since Mike Dean (who by the way has been the most consistent referee around in my humble opinion) .
Football is so very quick to point out mistakes by officials but did Klopp refuse to shake Mo or Trent’s hands for their glaring misses that cost us the game? Of course not they are his boys, did he berate himself for failing to play a side of formation to defeat the mighty Stoke? Maybe he did in private.
Basically it was a 50/ 50 decision (as was the Milner handball v Roma) . The assistant got one look and it could be argued that he was trying to pull his arm out of the way when he realised the ball was going to hit it.
Referees are poor sometimes, so are players, managers and fans, suck it up, to err is human. You’d all be bored if they invented a robot to get every decision correct.
Don’t here anybody praising officials for the incredibly high % of decisions they get correct with one look at a judgement call in a game of ever increasing pace.
If you want better officials in the prem then sign up for the gig, there must be at least 50 world class refs on this site itching to have a go, judging by some of your posts, no takers?

{Ed025's Note - great post that K68, i tried it once in the edge hill junior soccer league for a season, it was a bloody nightmare never to be tried again mate..

8.) 29 Apr 2018
29 Apr 2018 10:48:39
It's the inconsistency though. The linesman who help give spurs 2 penalties. And can't stop putting his flag up in that game even when refs happy to play on. He suddenly is scared or doesn't want to raise flag at old Trafford in our favour, youngs pull on salah on his side. Felliani blatent foul on mane that left felliani lying on top of mane and the ball just sitting next to them as clear penalty as you can get! Again his side no flag. And then the valencia handball when he's 1w yards away and mane is running in for tap in as like yesterday's handball. Yet milner has a shot hit at him waist height on Tuesday and clips his side onto arm penalty! As someone in media said yesterday with all the attacks and possession we've had at anfield this season spurs in a 10mins period have had double the penalties! Clearly am biased towards lfc but even the guys i know who will us to lose every week are texting me laughing saying they can't believe the decisions gone against us last few months and are loving it.

{Ed025's Note - poor old liverpool boo hoo, no body likes us everybody hates us guess ill go eat worms..

9.) 29 Apr 2018
29 Apr 2018 11:23:51
I think the standard of refereeing is so bad because they don't really seem accountable. There's always an ex ref ready to defend them like some old boys club. Watched some of Swansea and Chelsea yesterday and the referee (John Moss? ) was actually laughable. At one point Ayew was actually hacked down and he gave a free kick to Chelsea! These stupid decisions should be brought up after a game and they should explain why they gave them.

10.) 29 Apr 2018
29 Apr 2018 11:23:00
Shame then. 10 years and not a single impressive referee.

I understand JD23's point about ref's needing to make decisions in split seconds (think Brian Clough made that point rather strongly to John Motson once) and I can live with close calls going one way or another, and mistakes once in awhile. What I can't accept though is consistent incompetence and the spin to cover things up (as Ed001 mentioned, new, unique and once off interpretations that were cooked up for each new scenario they needed to cover up) . The latter behavior tells us things won't improve, because they don't own the errors and is ever ready to find new excuses to cover things up.

And just as the pace of the game has hastened, these modern day referees also have technology, new training methods and the like to help them learn refereeing better. It's not as if the world has stood still in their department.

I just wonder if performance related remuneration would at least make them try harder. Or allow the referees to come from independent / private entities that will have their contracts awarded / renewed based on performances. At least, this would make them accountable and be driven to perform at a better level than just going through the motion (as it seems that way right now) .

With better performances from the referees, it might also enable supporters to find a more balanced view of them and tolerate their errors (though, in the heat of the moment, we probably won't but may do so after being calmed), knowing that we are treated to an adequate standard of refereeing that is humanly possible rather than the current situation where most feel hard done because the standards are so appalling.

11.) 29 Apr 2018
29 Apr 2018 11:37:49
Ed025 i always like you're replies and think you are very fair. But you're reply for my post is pretty poor. Yes am pointing things out and clearly said am biased as am a fan like we all are. But rather than mock a post why not tell me what one am wrong with? Or be honest and say you have a point but need to take it on the chin and at some point we will get a few in our favour. I was honest enough at the time to say the one lallana got against everton in fa cup was harsh as was calvert lewin one, and that mignolet should have been sent off away to stoke so i can see the few we have gotten also.

{Ed025's Note - im just standing in for ED002 till he gets back coco....dont take things so seriously mate..

12.) 29 Apr 2018
29 Apr 2018 11:39:45
So are they incredibley fit or incredibly fit for their age? There's quite a difference between the 2.

13.) 29 Apr 2018
29 Apr 2018 11:49:08
Felix Brych, the guy who reffed our Roma match and Bjorn Kuipers, who did the other semi, are two that I always feel confident with. Even the pen given against us is hard to argue with as being wrong. I just like the way they let the game flow, set their stall out early and set the tone for the match. They rarely seem to miss things either which is why you won't get as many controversial decisions. If you're in the right place, often enough, you'll get the correct decision.

14.) 29 Apr 2018
29 Apr 2018 11:49:21
Haha that one made ne laugh mate.

{Ed025's Note - i dont really do serious very often coco mate.. :)

15.) 29 Apr 2018
29 Apr 2018 12:46:35
I think some of the responses fail to grasp my point. There is so much abuse of officials at grass roots levels that we are struggling to find enough up and coming people who will stick at it all the way to the top, hence the ageing crew we currently have in the prem, there are very few coming through the ranks to take their places. I do agree as you approach 50 it becomes very demanding physically and mentally to referee and train for so many matches at the highest level.
So what’s the answer, we can’t get good young ones to stick at it because of the abuse and assaults at lower levels.
I’ll give you an example, I am 50 and decided last season to stop refereeing the prem division of my local Sunday league. A few weeks ago a couple of the toughest people to referee in that league asked me why I had stopped bemoaning that the refs they have now are no good (in their opinion of course), they used the word sh**e to describe my colleagues. I replied that they had short memories as when I refereed them they called me sh**e too. They laughed and replied “yes but at least you were alright sh**e”.
I think my point is people in the game have only themselves to blame, everyone treats officials like dirt yet when they can’t get a referee they complain about their leagues or the refs letting them down coz they can’t play without one.
Like Ed25 said, have ago and experience what it feels like to blow the whistle for the first time and have everyone focus on you to see what your decision is. I know many players who say they gave it ago and couldn’t even bring themselves to blow the whistle for a foul because of the pressure they felt.
I started to referee 20 years ago when I stopped playing because I just wanted to stay involved and loved being part of the game. I achieved a decent level but couldn’t give the commitment the FA demand to go higher, I put my family first and now get great enjoyment out of watching my son play all sport, cricket, golf, football.
He often asks “dad why did you stop, couldn’t you be at a high level now if you had carried on? ”. My reply is “who knows, but I do know if I’d tried then I would have missed every goal you’ve ever scored, every run and wicket, every par and birdie. I wouldn’t swap that for anything and certainly not a life in the air, hotels and on the road for dogs abuse everywhere I go”
Yes they get well paid in terms of the average national wage but so what, imagine working in a job where thousands of people call you a blind b*st*rd, cheat or f’ing rubbish every time you go to work.
Most of us, if we experienced just one person shouting abuse at us in work would expect serious repercussions, 50-60 thousand though is acceptable if you wear a black kit and hold a whistle, society needs to have a word with itself.

16.) 29 Apr 2018
29 Apr 2018 13:26:24
Worms don’t taste like they used to, I blame the FA - poisoning all the worms in Liverpool 😡.

{Ed025's Note - please leave sam allardyce out of it ron..

17.) 29 Apr 2018
29 Apr 2018 13:36:43
😄 to be fair he’s more of a witchetty grub.

18.) 29 Apr 2018
29 Apr 2018 13:47:06
Koppite - I get your view, I really do. And a lot of people fail to take into account how difficult their jobs are.

But refs nowadays don't know the rules. Straight up, they do not know the rules. They do not know the rules about being challenged in the air. They do not know the rules about foreign objects on the field. They do not know the rules about handballs (some think it has to be deliberate, some say it has to affect the game, some think it's just whenever the arm isn't tucked in etc) . They do not know the offside rule. They do not know their powers when it comes to dealing with abuse (e. g. racism) from the crowd.

There can be excuses for missing things, for not getting a clear view and going with what you saw. That's understandable. But they do not know their rules, and rather than it being bought down on them when they don't know their rules they have the crowd of accomplices behind them making up rules to back them, giving them a carte blanche to never double down and make sure they stay prepared.

Amongst other jobs, I'm a train driver. I have 32 rulebooks, each one with about 30 rules for various situations. I have to know them all intimately because people don't call me a cheat or a ****er if I don't - they die. Don't tell me about the pressure or stress or how it's the fans fault etc. They do not know their rules and they are protected from the consequences of that. And whatever else happens, that is an utterly unacceptable standard for modern refs.

19.) 29 Apr 2018
29 Apr 2018 13:15:57
Ed001 I saw your comment about how referees are more accountable for decisions/ mistakes in the MLS.

How do you think the problem of poor officiating can be dealt with in this country and do you see any positive steps occurring in the near future?

Cheers.

{Ed001's Note - making refs accountable would be a big step towards improving matters. Just having refs explain why they made the decision they did would help. The most frustrating thing is the way they all close ranks and make up nonsense to pretend the ref hasn't made a mistake rather than just holding their hands up and admitting they got it wrong or their view was blocked etc.}

20.) 29 Apr 2018
29 Apr 2018 15:03:49
The game of Association Football has “Laws”
If a ref gets it wrong no one dies, I give up 🙄.

21.) 29 Apr 2018
29 Apr 2018 16:13:47
ED01, I agree however they work in an environment where the governing body slaughters them for every mistake. If that changed maybe the closed ranks would open up and they would seem more human and open to explaining their decisions without fear of reprisals.
I’m not a fan of the FA or PGMOL, they mark referees out of 100 however anyone being given 76+ by an observer can expert to have that moderated down, basically they are sending the message that there cannot be an excellent referee performance and the last 25 marks are simply unobtainable even for superman. Silly old sods, the lot of them.

{Ed001's Note - the governing body hides all that though and just publicly backs them and refuses to allow anyone to question their decisions.}

22.) 29 Apr 2018
29 Apr 2018 16:30:26
Point taken Ed, it’s like the whole organisation needs to believe or publicly give the impression that all our referees are incapable of mistakes. They clearly would have to admit that they themselves need reform if they admit that the refereeing standards they are churning out aren’t as high as they would have everyone believe. They still have this old fashioned superiority complex that English referees are the best in the world.
That attitude is why they are no longer, don’t move with the times or accept others are surpassing them.
British sporting disease over several sports, cricket is the same, elitist fools.

{Ed001's Note - very true mate. It is arrogance, plain and simple.}

23.) 29 Apr 2018
29 Apr 2018 16:43:16
Koppite68, the solution is simple. If the ref is not physically fit to keep up with play, then they should go get or recruit those who can. It's that simple. The fact that they are having issues keeping up with play, is not a reason for their poor perfs. and dreadful decisions that cost teams' points, to be ignored. Not in a million years. How is it say, Klopp's fault that the ref can't keep up with play hence, is trying to see a pen that he is 15 yards away from? That makes no sense, man. If the ref is sucking wind and can't keep up w/ the speed of the game then he needs to get gone, end of.

24.) 29 Apr 2018
29 Apr 2018 17:04:57
BR sorry but you simply have no understanding of what the role of a referee entails, you are speaking from a position of ignorance, it is not as simple as plucking the next Mo Farah off the street and giving them a whistle or a flag 🙄.

25.) 29 Apr 2018
29 Apr 2018 20:00:18
I think it's physically impossible to expect a ref to keep up with play. The ball will always travel faster than any human. Referees need help. But I am stumped on how they are to be helped.

26.) 29 Apr 2018
29 Apr 2018 20:41:25
Koppite, I will ignore your blatant arrogance cos if you knew anything about me, you would know that I actually reffed a bit before. Now back to your post. I stand by what I said. I am not asking them to be 2 yards from the play. I am asking them to not be 15 yards away from it when the ball is in play. Also, they can follow the play by taking up diff. positions on the pitch so their vision is not impeded.

When Colina was a ref, he was always from the play esp. in CL and int'l games and took up good positions to not have his vision blocked so he saw near everything. Also as Hijkle said, the PL refs do not know the rules (pens., offsides, handballs etc) hence, they simply do guess work. Don't believe me? Go listen to the disgraceful convo the refs and linos were having when they could not figure out if Lovren had touched the ball that played Kane onside vs Spurs. First off, that is not even the rule of the offside as the ball has to be played deliberately to Kane's direction for it to be onside. None of the refs knew the if Lovs touched the ball (again, not the rule) and STILL gave a pen. How can you give a pen whereas you don't even know if the critical part of the play happened? YOU CAN'T. This is why their drones in the media (Poll for instance), give them cover by making up footie rules that don't exist.

27.) 29 Apr 2018
29 Apr 2018 20:47:31
Spot on Jayden, I don’t like VAR as all it does is shift the disagreements from the pitch to the office. It’s a subjective game so 100% accuracy of decision making is impossible.
Ball over the line, offside decisions is about all it can decide as they are matters of fact.
The rest, like the skills of the game itself are all human made.