21 Feb 2018 09:56:32
Hi Ed1 and the older posters. I want to expand on the thread below about the dying art of defending. I started following football in the latter half of the 90s so I can't comment from first hand about the game before the PL era but I've always had a theory I'd like to hear your opinion on.

Simply put, is defending not much harder today because the game is being played at a much higher standard today? The players are much fitter, faster and stronger and I believe the average PL player is light years ahead technically than the average first division player from the 80s.

Do the older posters agree that standards have increased and is this an explanation as to why defenders look so much worse than they did 20/ 30 years ago?

1.) 21 Feb 2018
21 Feb 2018 10:37:45
Game is quicker and players are much more protected than they used to be which makes defending harder. Players are scared to make a tackle in the attacking third. Also defenders are being set up to attack more in modern day football, back in the day you were a defender, stay solid and get rid.

2.) 21 Feb 2018
21 Feb 2018 11:04:13
I disagree. The best forwards I've seen in the Premier league are Shearer, Henry, Drogba, Aguero and Torres. The best wide players I've seen are Ronaldo, Salah, Pires, Giggs and Robben. The best attacking midfielders I've seen are Gerrard, Lampard, Bergkamp, Silva and De Bruyne.

Of those 15 players, only 4 of them are playing in the league currently.

The reason why defences are no longer solid is because defending has become misunderstood. The game seems to highlight and reward the defenders who make lots of 50/ 50 challenges, last ditch recoveries and crunching tackles. It doesn't seem to reward players who funnel attackers out of play, make composed interceptions or gracefully nick the ball off the toes of an attacker. Defending now has to look spectacular to catch the eye.

Another key problem is tactics. Football used to be a game with 4 defenders, 2 midfielder and 4 attackers arranged in whatever way that particular wan chose. Be it a trio with a playmaker behind. 2 wingers and 2 strikers, or a main striker with a trio behind him. The game has changed though. Teams are now playing with 3 defenders and turning their full backs into wingers. Or in some cases playing with just 2 defenders, with full backs playing like wingers, and a midfielder with a good passing range dropping in between the centre backs. Full backs have become wing backs, centre backs have become midfielders, and everyone wants to play it out from the back. Even goal keepers are now playing as sweepers!

The biggest issue for me though, is a lack of leaders. Sometimes, you can forgive a player lacking in talent if he gets the best out of those around him. Keown, Carragher, Adams, Terry, Campbell, King etc. I can almost guarantee you now that those players would be playing in the Championship or for a lower Premier League side if they were coming through the system in the modern game. What they lacked in ability, they made up for in leadership, vocally and organisationally.

There are players like Lascelles (Newcastle), Mee (Burnley), Gibson (Middlesbrough), Morrison (Cardiff), Batth (Wolves) etc who are all fantastic leaders at the back, but probably won't ever get a chance to prove they can cope at a higher level because they are fairly average individually. Some of them probably wouldn't cope with a step up to be fair as not every player can step up to the next level successfully (football is not an exact science) but when was the last time a top Premier League team successfully gave the actual leader of a defence from a lesser side a chance, even though they weren't that highly rated?

I'll tell you when. Chelsea signed Gary Cahill from Bolton and won European cups and league titles with him in the side. So even though he's a pretty average individual, it's fair to say he has helped Chelsea to big things. Just before Gary Cahill there was also Phil Jones who whatever way you want to judge him, has won league titles, domestic cups and a European cup at United. Another average individual who displays good leadership qualities and has contributed hugely to United having the best defensive record in the league this season, and the second best in the Champions League.

Defending has died as an art, because modern football values the wrong attributes and modern tactics are turning defenders into midfielders. The quality of attackers has always been brilliant and the pitch and fitness argument is total rubbish. They all had to play on the same pitches with the same medical knowledge. Forwards may have got fitter and quicker, but so have defenders. Bobbles off bad pitches which favoured attackers, sometimes favoured defenders too. That is a soft excuse to be quite honest. The art of defending is just dying at the top level, quite frankly. At least it makes it more entertaining though!

3.) 21 Feb 2018
21 Feb 2018 11:13:12
Forgot to add that diving, over complicated offside rules, and stricter refereeing has made defending slightly harder. Top players should be able to adapt to the times though. Defenders are also more protected now anyway. If a striker puts his arms on you to win a header it'll be a free kick to the defender, but that rarely goes both ways.

4.) 21 Feb 2018
21 Feb 2018 11:14:43
my reply to both of you is show me a defender since the mid nighties or right through to now who could lace Maldini's or Franco's baresi's boots.
The art of defending is dead now and has been for a while.
go and watch a the ac milan team from the 80's or under capello and you will truly see what defending is all about
Im probably older then some on here but it makes me laugh when I read about the game and how it has improved etc
Nowadays there is a true lack of world class defenders about
I wonder how much the players I have mentioned would be worth in today's rates.
Ask yourself lads how much A Paul Mcgrath would have been worth or Des Walker.

5.) 21 Feb 2018
21 Feb 2018 11:21:59
My response was sent before Mk Scouser posted so is not in reply to his post.

6.) 21 Feb 2018
21 Feb 2018 11:34:46
Agreed Johncrow. I think defending hit a peak at around 2005 when there were players like Lahm, Thuram, Maldini, Nesta, Zambrotta, Cannavaro, Chiellini, Cafu, Terry, Carragher, Pepe, Carvalho, Ferdinand, Lucio, Samuel, Stam, Campbell, Toure, Ferreira, Cole, Neville, Puyol etc.

That generation had arguably the greatest pool of defenders to have lived, but i may be biased as i never saw any previous generations play live!

You look at the quality there was just 10-15 years ago though, compared to what there is now and the difference is horrific. In fact the only defenders in the modern game who would deserve to be on that list are Azpilicueta, Godin, and maybe Alderweireld in my opinion.

7.) 21 Feb 2018
21 Feb 2018 11:50:15
Perhaps we only remember the greats and forget all deeply average defenders that played in the past.

I wonder if in ten years we'll talk about Kompany and Alderweireld and how the defenders of that time can't hold a candle to them.

Not trying to make a statement, just trying to promote discussion.

8.) 21 Feb 2018
21 Feb 2018 11:51:05
Have to agree with you there MK it was a a great group of defenders which you have listed
I personally really rate Chellini but he is going a little down hill now but in his pomp there were few better for me in the last 6 - 7 years.

9.) 21 Feb 2018
21 Feb 2018 12:18:08
MK - how on earth are you qualified to talk about the greatest era of defenders that ever lived when if memory serves right you're about 23 years old?

not knocking your age to be clear, but you've hardly been around long enough to make such a statement?

10.) 21 Feb 2018
21 Feb 2018 12:28:45
This post has depressed me so much. John crow and mk. Completely agree with you and it's not from nostalgia either. It was a golden time for football, not just in premier league. I might add that it's the rest of the players which have dropped in quality and not just defenders. I hope someday I see a player with the same magic as zidane. I've seen messi and ronaldo at their best and they've done nothing to match that guy's incredible ability. Not to mention the real ronaldo. Small thing but international football was far more entertaining back then as well. I'm blaming FIFA 98 😉.

11.) 21 Feb 2018
21 Feb 2018 12:35:08
As someone who grew up watching the legendary AC Milan team of the 90's, the art of defending is completely dead. Why? A defender is no longer rated for how well he can defend before actually defending as in, read the danger, anticipate a striker's runs, showing an ability to spot a pass and then defend when actually needed. They also had enough intelligence to adjust in-game to adapt to what the opponent is doing.

Now, a defender over-coached, is rated on how well he fits into systems, how much pace he may have and how well he can pass the ball out of the back, all of which have nothing to do with actually being able to defend. Paolo Maldini once said that he considered making a tackle as failure to do his job. What does that say? That is how they were coached in that era. Players like Nesta, Canavarro, Laurent Blanc etc., did not need pace nor even need to to run. They knew what you would do before you did it. That game intelligence is what is lacking, IMO. Also, It says that at that time, players of today who look good for running around making tackles would not even make it at academy level then cos well, they would be failing all the time.

It also means that if you are almost always in the right position, you won't even need to tackle. Defenders today are poor all round as they are badly coached and even those with game intelligence are coached NOT to use that intelligence and just do what is droned into them by their fake "Know it all" managers.

12.) 21 Feb 2018
21 Feb 2018 12:28:58
I think you are all mistaken. If the art of defending was dead there would be a big increase in goals per game but there has been only an increase of around 4% since the start of the premier league.

Here are the goals per game and 5 year averages. You can see the goals dropped during the mid noughties and have increased again since.


Year Goals/ 5 yr
Game average
93-93 2.65
93-94 2.59
94-95 2.59
95-96 2.60
96-97 2.55 2.596
97-98 2.68 2.602
98-99 2.52 2.588
99-00 2.79 2.628
00-01 2.61 2.630
01-02 2.63 2.646
02-03 2.63 2.636
03-04 2.66 2.664
04-05 2.56 2.618
05-06 2.48 2.592
06-07 2.45 2.556
07-08 2.64 2.558
08-09 2.48 2.522
09-10 2.77 2.564
10-11 2.80 2.628
11-12 2.81 2.700
12-13 2.80 2.732
13-14 2.77 2.790
14-15 2.57 2.750
15-16 2.70 2.730
16-17 2.80 2.728
17-18 2.70 2.708.

{Ed001's Note - there are a hundred reasons that could be which are nothing to do with defending, such as a lesser quality of attacker or more defensively set out teams, such as Pulis, Allardyce, Mourinho etc. Just putting a bunch of stats down like that without context is just annoying and pointless. There is no conclusion to be drawn from these numbers by anyone who bothers to think about it.}

13.) 21 Feb 2018
21 Feb 2018 12:48:41
Wow Brover seems like a little rant there lol but I agree with ya mate.

14.) 21 Feb 2018
21 Feb 2018 12:53:02
aoe for me as good as messi is and Ronadlo is do any of them have the natural talent of Zindane?
if Zidane had the pace of say a salah would we be sitting here talking about one of the very very best of all time?
Take away the pace of Ronadlo and how good would he still be or take away the fact that every team messi has ever played in has been compeltely 100 percent based around him and giving him the ball at every opportunity no matter if it is the right choice or not.
for me neither of those two had the natural footballing talent of Ronaldinho or Ronaldo (buck tooth edition) or anywhere near the overall ability of Zidane.

15.) 21 Feb 2018
21 Feb 2018 12:57:04
A simple look at the Ballon D'or shortlist really tells you all you need to know. Yes an attacker is always more likely to take it but how many non-attacking players have been in the top 3 in the last 7 or 8 years?

People value defenders now based on whether they can run with the ball, pick a 30 yard pass, bomb up all day and cross from deep. A defender who simply let's nothing pass them just isn't valued in the game right now. But things come in swings and roundabouts, one day it'll be back to the day of the dominant defender whilst striking talent is expected to support itself.

16.) 21 Feb 2018
21 Feb 2018 13:12:46
Ed01 that there is no conclusion to be drawn from those goal stats is precisely the point I was trying to make.

If the art of defending was dead, there would be a significant change in goals scored since it died, unless you want to argue that the art of attacking died at the same time as well.

Stats can rarely be used to prove something did happen but often and easily be used to show there is no evidence in favour of a belief or assertion.

{Ed001's Note - no you weren't, you were using the stats to prove your point that the art of defending isn't dead. And you are still wittering on about it as if the numbers are in anyway relevant. I have already pointed out a number of things that can skew the stats to make them useless, but you are still trying to argue they are relevant. Pointless conversation as you are showing the reading comprehension of a brick wall. I am done bothering to reply to you, you clearly are not willing to take any notice.}

17.) 21 Feb 2018
21 Feb 2018 13:21:36
So many things to take into account with defenders of today and of times gone. Attacking players of now are faster yes, but look at the quality of dalglish, best, ronaldhino, kluivert and so many more that not the fastest but amazing on the ball, also the diffrence in pitches, quality of them, just look at old games or even pictures you can see the conditions that made playing attacking football we see on a regular basis now impossible, difference in footballs, football boots and life styles are amazing.
Wouldn't be surprised if we put the best attackers around now in the same conditions same equipment from the 80s they would struggle to be as effective as they are now.
The game has changed in so many ways, more effort is put into fast pace attacks, defenders are part of building it up now more than ever, th backs are more extra wingers than full backs, how many fullback are there now that can both defend and attack? The style of play we see now is seeing less defenders being coached to defend, instead to be part of the attack. If a team defends they are called for parking the bus.

Just my own opinion long winded at that, I have no expert knowledge just what I have seen watching the game over the last 30 plus years. The games evolving and defending doesn't seem to be important part of it. So less quality coming through.

18.) 21 Feb 2018
21 Feb 2018 13:32:08
I'm going to go out on a limb here and say in my humble opinion, zidane is the greatest player of all time. I've seen Maradonna and he's a close second. I'm sure quite a number would disagree but the lad did things with the football that still to this day are unmatched. He was the complete player. Messi and ronaldo aren't a patch on him.

19.) 21 Feb 2018
21 Feb 2018 13:41:43
Very well said ED1.

20.) 21 Feb 2018
21 Feb 2018 13:53:25
87red, there is such a thing as past footage. I had the video tape of Italia 90 for example, and I've watched at least 50 games between 70's to the 90's on LFC TV, YouTube etc.

I fully understand that this isn't a huge pool of footage to analyse though, hence why i said "but i may be biased as i never saw any previous generations play live! "

It doesn't mean I'm not qualified to have an opinion. You all happily read Ed001's legend profiles on people like Puskas who were well before his time. So is Ed001 no longer qualified to continue his legends series? Of course not. There is plenty of research techniques that can help you to gain an understanding of the past, without having been there. I probably know more about WW2 than my great grandma who was alive as it happened. Why? Research. History is never forgotten and it is easy to find footage of anything if you can be bothered. Your comment smacks of arrogance, quite frankly. As if being older makes your opinion more important. Maybe the Eds should put a 30+ age cap on the site seeing as all us younglings aren't qualified to have an opinion on football.

I fully understand that because i have lived the noughties, i may be slightly biased towards that era. I was caught up in the emotions of football in that time. That doesn't mean i can't tell you that Koeman, Moore, Hansen, Beckenbauer and co were fantastic players. I could even tell you their styles of play and career statistics, such is my interest in the history of the game. I just think the noughties had a very rich pool of defensive quality and from what I've read and watched of the past, no other era can quite match it. That is my opinion and you can disagree, but you habe no right to tell me it is less important because of my age, which you got wrong anyway.

21.) 21 Feb 2018
21 Feb 2018 14:15:43
MK im sure he was joking mate as no one would be that silly to believe a comment like that
age has no relevance on knowledge or even better the thirst for knowledge
there are various ways to find out or research any player in football present or past
I for one alongside a few others find your postS really interesting and thought provoking so long may you continue.

22.) 21 Feb 2018
21 Feb 2018 14:15:55
In fairness to mk, he is right in his comments so surely that qualifies him to have an opinion. The age barrier is a weak retort at best and it should never come down to age to ridicule someone's opinion. Criticise what they're saying instead of hammering them for who they are. Mk mate, you don't need to defend yourself on this one and I think brover absolutely nailed the answer.

23.) 21 Feb 2018
21 Feb 2018 14:22:22
Did I really see MK saying Ledley King didn’t have the ability, but his leadership skills helped him?! You must have been struggling for a name to make up your ‘list’. King was brilliant who was unfortunate with injuries.

Not knocking your knowledge or opinion but being a quality defender includes those leadership skills, it’s not a special skill it’s a requirement.

24.) 21 Feb 2018
21 Feb 2018 14:34:48
Very ignorant comment that 87red. I would understand it if MK had of made no sense in what he wrote but he did make sense didn't he? he probably knows them days better then you and he probably wasn't even born. Research is indeed key, this man is no daft, I think he's proved that enough to get some respect instead of arrogant comments.

25.) 21 Feb 2018
21 Feb 2018 15:35:45
Can’t believe you’ve left fowler out mk, I’d say he was by far the best natural finisher we’ve had since the premier league started maybe not the most gifted but I’d have him and Suarez ahead of Torres.

26.) 21 Feb 2018
21 Feb 2018 16:00:50
I never saw Fowler (first spell) live, Pegleg. I only started following football in 2004, and Liverpool in 2005. He was deadly enough in his second coming! I've watched a compilation of all of his goals and my word. Better than Suarez? God yeah.

JordDodz, sorry if i didn't make it clear enough! But i really rated Ledley King. I thought he was phenomenal. He was the closest to Ferdinand out of any of the other English centre backs, but sadly injury robbed him of what i think would have been a stellar career.

27.) 21 Feb 2018
21 Feb 2018 16:09:09
I just had a look at my list of defenders from the 2005 time period and I'm frankly disgusted that i missed off Hyypia and Zanetti. There was just too many to not miss a couple. Particularly ashamed i forgot Zanetti though. He was a genius.

28.) 21 Feb 2018
21 Feb 2018 16:11:25
pretty sure Salah is MK's sister account.

{Ed033's Note - no it isn't

29.) 21 Feb 2018
21 Feb 2018 17:41:37
I was going to mention Big Sami 😡.
Can’t agree with Zidane over Diego.
Ask yourself if Zidane could have played in Diego’s era and vice-versa. Maradonna was a one off, a total freak. He did everything wrong once terms of lifestyle yet was still miles ahead of his time. Lots of respect for Zidane but he was not in Diego’s league.

I think defenders are less capable these days due to laws changing encouraging attacking tactics and the culture of coaches. The wheeel will turn again 🤝.

30.) 21 Feb 2018
21 Feb 2018 19:05:07
Total agree about Sami Ron. I know, I know, maradonna was my idol growing up. What he did at Napoli was just incredible and obviously what he did for Argentina was legendary. Don't get me wrong, I think maradonna is close but for me, zidane changed football. And like maradonna he won the World Cup almost single handedly for France. In fairness they were better than Argentina but only barely and the competition was far better to 86. Diego was a total freak but zidane was an absolute genius. We'll never see the likes of either again sadly.

31.) 21 Feb 2018
21 Feb 2018 20:19:41
AOE, I understand that Zidane is your idol BUT him changing football? Sorry, I disagree. Zidane was a great player BUT at the time at France 98, he had a poor tournament bar the final which he may not have even played cos he stamped on Fuad Amin of Saudi Arabia and got a straight red. W/ O him vs Paraguay in the round of 16, it took a fortunate goal in the last minute of extra time from Laurent Blanc to get past Chilavert and his team mates and even the French players admitted that they would not have survived the penalty shoot out cos Chilavert was a wall the whole game. Zidane had a great final vs a Brazilian team that was well beaten before the took the pitch due to Ronaldo's convulsion pre game.

Zidane was a great player again BUT to me, he did not change the game the was say a Ronaldo Luiz Nazario (O Phenomeno), George Weah (Berlusconi still raves about him till this day) or Marco Van Basten changed the CF position. Maradona is still miles ahead of him and frankly the ONLY player to revolutionize football, WELL ahead of his time was you guessed it, El Rey Pele.

32.) 21 Feb 2018
21 Feb 2018 21:02:07
If it was purely based around dribbling, then I would say Maradona was the better player. But Zidane made his team play better so if I had to pick a team to win the big matches then I would go for Zidane before Maradona.

33.) 21 Feb 2018
21 Feb 2018 21:10:05
In regard the main thread of the art of defending, I reckon Brover nailed it when he said its due to overcoaching. Defenders whilst needing to work within a system (because defending is definitely a team effort) need to be free to adapt to changes on the field. If they are scared of adapting then they are screwed. So all good defences need at least one organiser who can read the game. But too many players look like this has been trained out of them or scared of making a decision. Youth coaches need to have a look at themselves.

34.) 22 Feb 2018
22 Feb 2018 04:04:56
Here in Australia, there is very little emphasis placed on coaching how to defend at a junior level. Time needs to be devoted to all areas of defending. 1v1, central areas, wide areas, transition areas, high and deep areas. The key is getting the youth to understand why they are doing what they do. The earlier they understand, the easier it is for them to anticipate situations. Patience in coaching and patience on the field when defending are important early on I think. This may not be the same around the world, but it certainly exists here, and I believe is a big issue.

35.) 22 Feb 2018
22 Feb 2018 07:47:01
87red,

Arguably one of the silliest digs or comment I have seen on here or any other forum in my near on 40 years.

You are just having a sly dig at the guy, get a life mate, or at least explain your comment instead of it just being left dead at "how on earth are you qualified to talk about the greatest era of defenders that ever lived when if memory serves right you're about 23 years old".

Idiotic!

36.) 23 Feb 2018
23 Feb 2018 11:00:48
@preso I agree mate. i've coached in Oz for a long time now and have to agree that the art of defending is neglected. Either because coaches are unsure on how to teach it, or because they concentrate too much on winning (which oddly enough can hinder developing defensive skills) or because the FFA do not provide enough assistance on helping coaches develop the skills of teaching it. Most of my training plans on defensive skills, I had to develop myself.